(Fantasy) Religion and Technology
So, normally I argue that:
1) Gods in a fantasy world should be somewhat removed from mortals rather than being frequently present and driven by "normal" goals, so as to be something more than "just powerful guys."
2) Technological advancement should still happen in fantasy worlds.
But between Warbreaker and Furryfaire, I'm running some mental theory on a different perspective.
So... as far as technology goes, I very much believe in the old saying "necessity is the mother of invention." Technology advances a lot in wars because multiple sides are striving to gain an edge over one another. On a smaller scale, you get that when companies or craftsmen compete, too.
Then what happens if there isn't a need? In a extended period of peace with little threat, military advancement can halt and stagnate. If the needs of the citizenry are all met, why make something new? Of course, that depends somewhat on what is "need." There may always be little things that can be improved upon, but there probably is an upper limit to major inventions somewhere.
Now presume a world in which the gods are apparent and influential. Perhaps they rule countries, or their chosen individuals do. People turn to religion, and the powers answer with miracles that really do cure the ill and strengthen the weak. What do they ask in return? Well, for the sake of argument, let's say very little in a direct sense. They set forth virtues to strive for, but they don't force people to adhere to them. They establish leadership and ask that people follow, but they don't instantly smite individuals down for dissent. They don't necessarily insist people attend church, or ceremonies, or (in most cases) give offerings.
That actually sounds like a pretty good deal. Why would people not agree to that? Well, I suppose a fierce sense of independence. If some folk felt they were being used as little more than game pieces, I could see how they might be upset. And yet... what percentage of people would really be up in arms about it? We've anti-governmental militias/groups in real life, certainly, but they seem awful small in number next to the "common man" who just goes about his day.
And in a society like that, with magic (divine and arcane) available to solve problems, maybe there really wouldn't be a lot of need for technological advancement. From this angle, I imagine it's a matter of how common things are. If there's always a mage available to levitate bricks, there's no need to develop a crane. If the nearest levitator is two towns away, however, maybe there is need. If magic can cure disease and mend wounds (even with limited knowledge of biology and medical science), there may be no drive to discover bacteria and the like - unless people are dying because there aren't enough healers to go around.
So maybe there's something to the other side of things, but it's all subject to a careful balance if there's to be a sense of "realism." Of course, just how realistic something needs to be depends on the situation.
Ah well. In the end, I may just be rambling again.
1) Gods in a fantasy world should be somewhat removed from mortals rather than being frequently present and driven by "normal" goals, so as to be something more than "just powerful guys."
2) Technological advancement should still happen in fantasy worlds.
But between Warbreaker and Furryfaire, I'm running some mental theory on a different perspective.
So... as far as technology goes, I very much believe in the old saying "necessity is the mother of invention." Technology advances a lot in wars because multiple sides are striving to gain an edge over one another. On a smaller scale, you get that when companies or craftsmen compete, too.
Then what happens if there isn't a need? In a extended period of peace with little threat, military advancement can halt and stagnate. If the needs of the citizenry are all met, why make something new? Of course, that depends somewhat on what is "need." There may always be little things that can be improved upon, but there probably is an upper limit to major inventions somewhere.
Now presume a world in which the gods are apparent and influential. Perhaps they rule countries, or their chosen individuals do. People turn to religion, and the powers answer with miracles that really do cure the ill and strengthen the weak. What do they ask in return? Well, for the sake of argument, let's say very little in a direct sense. They set forth virtues to strive for, but they don't force people to adhere to them. They establish leadership and ask that people follow, but they don't instantly smite individuals down for dissent. They don't necessarily insist people attend church, or ceremonies, or (in most cases) give offerings.
That actually sounds like a pretty good deal. Why would people not agree to that? Well, I suppose a fierce sense of independence. If some folk felt they were being used as little more than game pieces, I could see how they might be upset. And yet... what percentage of people would really be up in arms about it? We've anti-governmental militias/groups in real life, certainly, but they seem awful small in number next to the "common man" who just goes about his day.
And in a society like that, with magic (divine and arcane) available to solve problems, maybe there really wouldn't be a lot of need for technological advancement. From this angle, I imagine it's a matter of how common things are. If there's always a mage available to levitate bricks, there's no need to develop a crane. If the nearest levitator is two towns away, however, maybe there is need. If magic can cure disease and mend wounds (even with limited knowledge of biology and medical science), there may be no drive to discover bacteria and the like - unless people are dying because there aren't enough healers to go around.
So maybe there's something to the other side of things, but it's all subject to a careful balance if there's to be a sense of "realism." Of course, just how realistic something needs to be depends on the situation.
Ah well. In the end, I may just be rambling again.
rambling. But I like to read your rambles, so...
ReplyDeleteAhh.. fantasy settings with magic vs. tech. This seems to be a common dichotomy in a -lot- of places. I think we can trace it back to Arthurian legend, the idea of knights and keeps with sorceries and faith at war with one another. In game settings there's a couple of options that occur: 1) Magic and tech simply don't mix. Like in the Dresdenverse, using magic near devices makes them foomf! Becoming an inventor or relying on machines and tech means a disconnect and lack of ability to weave magick effect (Like the Computer RPG Arcanum) and vice versa. 2) Your musing above. Magic is so common and refined that it -replaces- technology where applicable. 3) A scenario much like #1, but the inability to cast magic stems not from an acceptance of technology, but is actually in the genes. Wizards are born, not made (However, study and practice make better mages than just finger wavey nonsense. See Harry Potter's world of Muggle vs. non-Muggle) 4) Social stigma. Magic-users are witches, dangerous, wild and bent on selfish aims, trafficking with demons and spirits, best to be avoided. This one, funny enough, fits real well into a "historical" Dark Ages setting, even if Faith makes Miracles with palpable effects that are magical as well, since it's from God, it's OK. 5) Length of time that magic has been available as a resource. If magic is "ancient" or "old" with thousands of years of tradition, it's difficult for technology and innovation to edge in. If there's areas of the world isolated from these magical traditions, then those who are without find ways to make due with constructed, artificial means.
ReplyDeleteAck, meant to add an option for any combination of the above.
ReplyDeletebut then, why can't magic and technology just exist and evolve together? I mean, if you're going to create a world where magic is even possible (besides illusionists) why not go for broke? Why all this fretting about realism when the very premise that magic works isn't in any way tied to reality to begin with?
ReplyDeleteWell, they can? My usual argument is that, under most circumstances, technology (and magic) should still advance in a fantasy world. Most authors and game designers just seem to ignore any advancement and present a world that has been almost exactly the same for thousands of years without offering any reason why.
ReplyDeleteIf the nearest levitator is two towns away, yet everyone realizes that levitating is the preferred building method, perhaps development would turn towards how to allow him/her to travel faster, or magical devices that would allow laypeople to do such things, no? Why does advancement need to be technological when it could just as easily be magical advancement? It seems to me then there are more than just two states of: lots of magic, little technological advancement and little magic, more technological advancement. Unless magical advancement is so developed that nonmagical folk are essentially 'magical' because of magic artifacts (I have a broom that lets me fly, I have a wand that lets me levitate bricks, even though I have no knowledge of making such things), fantasy worlds usually put magic in the hands of a relative few. So long as someone is left 'without' magic, there will be someone who will want to invent a 'better' nonmagic way? Is that enough to trigger a renaissance of technological development? Doesn't it always boil down to 'it depends'? :D
ReplyDeleteIt does, yes. There are lots of ways it can go, I just wish more authors/game designers would actually think about it. Granted, it's somewhat beside the central point of the fantasy genre, but if there's a plausible degree of historical development of magic/technology - of society in general - it leads to a richer and more believable world. Most often, these thoughts arise from something happening on Furryfaire that makes me ask "wait, why didn't someone do this hundreds or thousands of years ago?"
ReplyDeleteAlthough I didn't comment on your #1 in the original post, for gods that are not removed from society, perhaps advancement stagnates because the gods purposefully keep it so. I've always thought that the typical fantasy deities, fallible and driven by goals and desires that mortals can identify with, could always be 'outgrown'. For example, if you pray to the fertility goddess for a good planting, but your technology allows you to overcome such problems as drought, plant disease, insect control, etc... then doesn't your 'need' for that divine help lessen? But what if a god kept the knowledge and technology repressed specifically for that reason? Also, something to consider is that wars do innovate, but they also obviously destroy. The question may not be 'why didn't someone do this...' but more 'how did this knowledge get lost?' Yes someone invented airships... then conflicts happened... and divine powers intervened in the conflict... and both sides of the civilization were set back centuries and more because of the resulting destruction. In other words, technology (and magic both, perhaps) advancement is constantly set back by lost knowledge. After all, real advancement doesn't come from just one person, right? It comes from that one person sharing their ideas with others. Destroy that knowledge? No advancement.
ReplyDeleteHmm. "Divine limitation" is actually something I had in mind when I wrote the post, but I think that particular topic slipped my mind a little as I was writing. That's a possibility I'll carry in mind from the Mistborn series and Rym. The reference material for the latter has truck-sized holes all throughout it, but it does present a history where the "children" of the gods defied their creators and pushed technology to the point where a was on the gods themselves was possible. In the end, pretty much everyone lost. The thing about the rise and fall of advancement is, as you say, you have to lose the source and understanding of a development to lose it. If a nation uses airship regularly, it would take a pretty notable cataclysm to bury that so deep no one reinvents them for hundreds or thousands of years.
ReplyDelete