Of Bad Dreams and Jedi
I guess poor sleep is better than no sleep? Ugh. Tossed and turned for quite a while last night, and then still didn't sleep well up to and including the mutant-backcountry-murderer-family-horror-movie-style nightmare. Ah well, what can you do?
A couple WoW observations (and I finally have my Valor Medal of the First War trinket I've been putting off):
1) The guild has grown recently, with some people joining from the MUCK and some coworkers signing up. None of them are level 80 yet, but if they don't peter out by the time they get there, we might actually need to start thinking about raid scheduling.
2) Group composition really matters - and I'm not just talking about having a tank, healer, and DPS. We ran heroic Nexus last night with 2 of or usual engame characters, 1 alt, and 2 players not usually a part of our heroic runs. I am not, in any way, saying we did badly, but it wasn't nearly as smooth as our usual group. A bit of that might have been less familiarity with the encounters, but I think most of it was less familiarity with each other. Play together enough and you really do start to get used to the pace and tactics of those around you.
I've also been pondering the situation in my Star Wars game. I'll probably ramble here, so it'll be behind a cut. To the players of said game: I don't expect to get spoilery as far as plot, but these thoughts will include a bit of my "behind the screen" thinking as GM.
I don't think I have every had an NPC be as divisive as Ka Reav. I'm quite amazed, really.
Background: So the Jedi group, by mere presence, worried a local crime lord into sending someone to kill them. The hitman, Ka Reav, decide he really doesn't want to do that (though exactly why is, perhaps, debatable). So he stages an attack in ambush and deliberately blows it, expecting the Jedi to at least arrest him (because it'll at least look like he tried, so he might not be next on the hit list himself).
Well, due to crappy dice rolls, he probably couldn't have actually harmed anyone even if he had been trying. The Jedi "secure" him and then decide to... let him go. That's about the worst possible outcome in his mind. It's also a matter of some debate among the group.
So then one of the Jedi snoops around and discovers that, indeed, someone else is being sent after Ka Reav. She goes to warn him, ends up helping him, convinces him to spare the other assassin's life, and takes him back to their ship with some agreement to at least take him off the space station and drop him off elsewhere.
Now I'm a little confused on the discussion after the "attempted mock assassination attempt." At least one person wanted to bring him along because... I'm not sure. I don't remember it being for his safety. Maybe because he could be useful? Some people didn't want him around because he was an assassin sent to kill them. That makes sense to me. I don't recall anyone even suggesting turning him over to the local security force. That may not have been an ideal solution, but it seems more logical than just letting him go. Jedi are something of a quasi-legal force in the Republic, after all.
Then later there's this about-face and they take him along? That's strange. Admittedly, this was agreed to with utmost reluctance on the part of some of the group. One party member even went so far as to almost say directly "it's him or me, if you take him along, I walk."
I'm really not sure what to make of all that. While I had one person apologize to me OOC along the way for pursuing unnecessary plot threads, I did place the NPC there with questionable motives and moralities as a possible thread for the PCs to deal with. I certainly didn't expect it to raise these questions and events or cause a rift in the group.
I'm also surprised they didn't act further to address the crime lord issue (beyond a meeting in which he kept his cool and avoided giving any proof of guilt), though I don't consider that decision "wrong" per se. They just opted to stay on track with the larger issue of finding whoever attacked their academy. That's a big picture decision. As long as it's not made out of a sense of vengeance, it's probably acceptably Jedi.
There's also some ongoing friction with one PC and his naivete. Okay, he's had a sheltered life and he's slow to adopt new thinking. He seems to see the best in people (and droids). Y'know, "on paper" that doesn't sound bad. So why is it so grating?
A couple WoW observations (and I finally have my Valor Medal of the First War trinket I've been putting off):
1) The guild has grown recently, with some people joining from the MUCK and some coworkers signing up. None of them are level 80 yet, but if they don't peter out by the time they get there, we might actually need to start thinking about raid scheduling.
2) Group composition really matters - and I'm not just talking about having a tank, healer, and DPS. We ran heroic Nexus last night with 2 of or usual engame characters, 1 alt, and 2 players not usually a part of our heroic runs. I am not, in any way, saying we did badly, but it wasn't nearly as smooth as our usual group. A bit of that might have been less familiarity with the encounters, but I think most of it was less familiarity with each other. Play together enough and you really do start to get used to the pace and tactics of those around you.
I've also been pondering the situation in my Star Wars game. I'll probably ramble here, so it'll be behind a cut. To the players of said game: I don't expect to get spoilery as far as plot, but these thoughts will include a bit of my "behind the screen" thinking as GM.
I don't think I have every had an NPC be as divisive as Ka Reav. I'm quite amazed, really.
Background: So the Jedi group, by mere presence, worried a local crime lord into sending someone to kill them. The hitman, Ka Reav, decide he really doesn't want to do that (though exactly why is, perhaps, debatable). So he stages an attack in ambush and deliberately blows it, expecting the Jedi to at least arrest him (because it'll at least look like he tried, so he might not be next on the hit list himself).
Well, due to crappy dice rolls, he probably couldn't have actually harmed anyone even if he had been trying. The Jedi "secure" him and then decide to... let him go. That's about the worst possible outcome in his mind. It's also a matter of some debate among the group.
So then one of the Jedi snoops around and discovers that, indeed, someone else is being sent after Ka Reav. She goes to warn him, ends up helping him, convinces him to spare the other assassin's life, and takes him back to their ship with some agreement to at least take him off the space station and drop him off elsewhere.
Now I'm a little confused on the discussion after the "attempted mock assassination attempt." At least one person wanted to bring him along because... I'm not sure. I don't remember it being for his safety. Maybe because he could be useful? Some people didn't want him around because he was an assassin sent to kill them. That makes sense to me. I don't recall anyone even suggesting turning him over to the local security force. That may not have been an ideal solution, but it seems more logical than just letting him go. Jedi are something of a quasi-legal force in the Republic, after all.
Then later there's this about-face and they take him along? That's strange. Admittedly, this was agreed to with utmost reluctance on the part of some of the group. One party member even went so far as to almost say directly "it's him or me, if you take him along, I walk."
I'm really not sure what to make of all that. While I had one person apologize to me OOC along the way for pursuing unnecessary plot threads, I did place the NPC there with questionable motives and moralities as a possible thread for the PCs to deal with. I certainly didn't expect it to raise these questions and events or cause a rift in the group.
I'm also surprised they didn't act further to address the crime lord issue (beyond a meeting in which he kept his cool and avoided giving any proof of guilt), though I don't consider that decision "wrong" per se. They just opted to stay on track with the larger issue of finding whoever attacked their academy. That's a big picture decision. As long as it's not made out of a sense of vengeance, it's probably acceptably Jedi.
There's also some ongoing friction with one PC and his naivete. Okay, he's had a sheltered life and he's slow to adopt new thinking. He seems to see the best in people (and droids). Y'know, "on paper" that doesn't sound bad. So why is it so grating?
I'd discussed this with you in passing, but I'll flesh it out here. As far as my character can see, the group is not being... let's say... consistent. From Dev's view: 1) If Ka Reav is an assassin, and was serious about killing the group, he should have been turned into the authorities, full-stop. We should not have lied to the authorities (even if it was a lie of omission). 2) By letting Ka Reav go, Deveron took this as acceptance that he was not trying to kill anyone in the group and was 'not a bad person'. This meant, as far as Deveron was concerned, Ka Reav would make a useful ally, since he has knowledge of weapons and society that (as far as Dev knows), the PCs do not. 3) Learning that the person who had hired Ka Reav had planned to kill him, Deveron feels that the Jedi are responsible for this situation, and also responsible for keeping Ka Reav alive. This would fall under the 'protect life' sort of view he thinks Jedi should have. Being willing to abandon Ka Reav to be killed, and not caring about such an event, Deveron thinks is a Bad Choice. And now I know the Jedi Code that he follows too. :) He comes from a long lived race, and I think following the first Code makes sense considering them. Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force.
ReplyDeleteAlien mindsets do not entirely constitute logic the way we see things? Kyt gets attacked, but isn't slain, or even really injured, and overcomes her attacker. To a cathar that means the adversary is an inferior, until they can prove themselves worthy through another challenge. So Kyt views Ka as a sort of child or lesser, and when he's being picked on by his employer for something that's not Ka's fault (You shouldn't punish failure with murder, you should encourage them to try again only better) she sees it as her responsibility to get him out of such an abusive relationship. Now that she has done that, she's willing to wash her hands of him and let him have his own life. Also, she's an idiot.
ReplyDeleteI would question what Jedi master who trained him taught him this Code instead of the 'standard' one?
ReplyDeleteThis is the original Jedi Code, and is what is used on Dev's home world.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'd put that under 'alien' mindset. :)
ReplyDeleteI think that familiarity with everyone plays a fairly major part as everyone knows what to expect. In the face of lack of familiarity, communication overcomes this. As we were finishing up, I got to thinking we should have passed leader to Valeck and let him call the shots and mark as he saw fit. I know Kyn normally does the job, but he seemed pretty distracted (which is no problem, it happens). :)
ReplyDeleteI think the leap from #1 to #2 is pretty dang far. And what makes Deveron think that we're all as naive as he is? I don't think everyone (or at least Videya didn't) grew up being a Jedi, sheltered from the real world. Also, I don't happen to believe Ka Reav is an especially well-informed ally, and I think Videya is much more likely to trust her own instincts over his.
ReplyDeleteHmm... There's something to that. We do tend to pass marking/leading to Kyn as he's... well... guild leader? And he's one of the top few who are most familiar with dungeons we go into (by experience or research), so he generally knows as much about what each mob can do as anyone in the group. Ideally, though, it should probably be handled by the tank if possible (just so the group has one person setting the pace rather than two), and it can be an especially good way for a new tank to start figuring out what does and doesn't work. Those of us more practiced at heroics are probably pretty good at keeping up and taking up any slack as necessary. Perhaps the biggest example of our unfamiliarity with that run, in my mind, was our CC overlap/breakage/chaos. We had a couple repentent turtles (cuuute), and I had to convince myself to just stop using Divine Storm (which is standard rotation, so a bit of habit while playing Ret) on most trash pulls because anything polymorphed close enough I kept breaking it. Hmm. And did the adds on Oromok not entangle before? As I think you commented, I really don't remember that being an issue. Maybe I just haven't done Nexus that much on heroic. >.>
ReplyDeleteHe's too naive to know better? *snerks* I don't recall Sol's Knowledge skills off-hand, but I know he came from a spacer background, so he certainly wasn't as sheltered as Deveron.
ReplyDeleteWell, the jump from #1 to #2 is more like this: Did he try to kill one of us? If so, he is taken in and questioned. That's it, that's all. There should be no excuse not to take him in. The only reason you would not bring him to the authorities is if he didn't do anything wrong. As for 'as naive'... Dev doesn't consider himself naive, he considers himself 'less informed' about the outside world. Something which will change over time. Even so, he plans to keep to the moral high ground and presume the best in everyone (though how long the latter lasts is up to debate). Even if he starts to accept most people aren't essentially good, he will give them the benefit of the doubt until they do something to screw him over.
ReplyDelete*tickles*
ReplyDeleteThe only difference between being good and bad is if you're successful or not? I know that's simplifying the argument into a polar example, but I'm not buying the naivete when it borders on ludicrous. Also the logic leap from 'failed assassin' to 'ally' is too far based solely on the premise that 'us letting him go means he did nothing wrong and in fact, should be trusted to watch our backs in tough situations'. Those were the things that were bothering me last Thursday. Well, if you read it all, thanks. Hopefully my comments aren't too biting. I very much enjoy the game and want to enjoy it more and am willing to find common ground so we can all be fond of our participation. :)
ReplyDeleteI'll concede the first to you. Videya should have spoken up and insisted as such. I made a mistake there, and will admit it in RP if it arises, because I want to set the right tone for her - letting him go for a pretty egregious act was out of character.
ReplyDeleteRE: the entangles, apparently they happen at a pretty consistent angle depending on how he's positioned. If you stand right, you never have to worry about the spikes, is what I'm told. I cut my teeth on him as a Paladin, and hand of freedom and bubbles means not worrying much about the spikes. If you're rooted, freedom, if you're rooted and can't freedom, bubble. Druids have repeated ways to get out of snares, but it takes time to shift back and forth, unlike the Paladin who can do it and be free for at least several seconds without fear or being rerooted. So, I guess I'm going to start looking at how the spikes come out and find the clear zone.
ReplyDeleteRepent turtles, nice :D I also noticed Val going for the repent target next, probably due to proximity, where sap should always be next because it cannot be reapplied. Repent should probably be after that because while it can be reapplied, the cooldown is as long as the duration so if someone breaks it, that's it. Sheep probably last because resheeping is pretty repeatable regardless. I think though I was pretty happy that we started out CC'ing but then as things progressed I wanted to see what Val could take without CC. He fared well enough that I think he could handle most heroic trash in what's now the defacto 'standard' - tank gets everything and everyone AoE's whatever. Still though, you occasionally drew aggro for a hit or two. Not sure if you were passing his threat or if it was just WotLK heroics where multi-target damage is the norm.
ReplyDeleteCC's good to have, and nice to ease into things, but rapidly gets less important. Now that Val's 80, a few gear upgrades could be crafted fairly readily I'm not sure how he stands on rep. As far as aggro... I noticed, but wasn't able to pinpoint the cause. I may have jumped the gun a few times, though for most of the run I was deliberately trying to throttle things back a little, especially at the beginning of a pull. But I'd find myself pulling aggro latter on in a trash pull, too. I suspect, though don't know for certain, that Val may have been rotating primary targets - so he was moving to building up threat on mob 2 while I was still cutting lose on mob 1, thus I out-threated him on that one. I know I learned the target-rotation technique when I was first getting into tanking in BC, but I've perceived little need for it in Wrath. Tank AOE/multitarget effects seem better in general. Of course, it's also possible Val's still learning his optimal rotation. And it's possible I should have held back more myself. I'm not sure, and it'd probably take another couple runs and/or some talk with Val to nail the exact cause down.
ReplyDeleteWell, part of my bringing this up "publicly" is to get feedback and feelings that I don't necessarily see in the midst of the game. Thusly, I'm glad for the comments, length or not. I can largely understand Videya's perspective. Actually, I can understand most of the characters' perspectives. Unfortunately, that often makes it hard for me to say someone is right and someone is wrong. Everyone's "right" - from a certain point of view. ;) An assassin who failed to kill a party member is pretty obviously not anyone's first choice of ally. Even if you take in all the details of the encounter (things like deliberate use of sub-optimal weapons and failure to press the attack), which Videya doesn't really have access to, he's still awful sketchy. The important question in my mind would be more a matter of why he tried to flub this hit. I think, due to communication issues and a somewhat-alien morality, he's not actually going to be able to give any answer to that which would put minds completely at ease. So doing more than giving him a ride is a risk, as no one really knows how loyal he may or may not be. Deveron gives him trust because he assumes the best. Videya doesn't because she sees no reason to trust him. I'm not really in a position to say either way is better. It's for the PCs to decide which way things go. I just didn't expect it to be THIS big a deal. >.> Regarding Leadership: I think it's safe to say the Jedi Council doesn't know you all well enough to appoint a clear leader among padawans. But you can bet any reports sent back will be looked at closely.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if your complaint is aimed at me or Kit. If me I thought I summed up but if not, lemme use your words: "Ka Reav attacked us, but he missed and really he didn't mean it, he's a good guy! Let's invite him over for tea." To Kyt it is: "Ka Reav attacked me, but he totally failed because really he isn't as good as me, he's a lesser being! Let's not let him get killed by his owner for being inferior."
ReplyDeleteBut divergent plot threads are what all games are about!
ReplyDeleteNo that complaint sarcasm is mainly me trying to understand the 'grating naivete' RE: Deveron. At first Videya was a little miffed that Kytryna brought Ka Reav back, and the way she basically marched up with her new 'pet' in tow with no immediate explanation. But she accepted her eventual explanation and motivation: get him off the station and drop him off at the nearest viable port. Not sure this Republic warship is the best place to drop him, though! :D Also, letting him tag along for the moment gives the opportunity for him to prove himself, should the GM want/need him to continue with the group. She would need to be convinced to look past her major trust issue with Ka Reav before considering accepting him as anything but a refugee/passenger.
ReplyDeleteMost warriors I have spoken to learned to rotate since they have only a few AoE tools. They've gotten more in WotLK, but most still rotate and apply sunders to generate big threat. It never seemed like he had trouble taking aggro back from you, but I'd notice the trash switch to you momentarily.
ReplyDeleteHmm. Which still leaves me wondering if it's gear differential (which means I should ease back on output a little more) or tactics (ie. he's learning the best rotation). I haven't noticed similar issues with Dem tanking. Though, admittedly, when I'd see a mob turn to me and start wondering "why's that going on, should I switch targets?" it just seemed most efficient to keep burning down the target and trust in the healer. I want to know just what was happening so things can be done better in the future, but I can't say I was ever actually worried about wiping due to what was going on. ;)
ReplyDeleteDev is taking Videya's lead most of the time, since he accepts she seems the most knowledgeable. The entire thing with Ka Reav however, he considered a moral choice, rather than an experience choice, and that's why he protested. Dropping Ka off somewhere will be fine, though he might ask where we're going to find someone to provide us assistance. :)
ReplyDeleteWell it was probably too far to have Videya seem to threaten 'it's him or me!' but I RP'd it that way so I'll live with the results and repair relationships as needed. As for leadership, Videya wants the job (not sure I want her to want it but that's just one of those RP quirks I guess), so I guess I'll try to keep my head on straight and play how I want Videya to be: thoughtful, collected, inspiring, charming.
ReplyDeletePerhaps then I didn't make it clear that I was fine with him being a passenger, it was the joining issue she was adamant about.
ReplyDeleteSince no-one is continuing to comment, I'm stoking the fires! I can see the logic behind 'we're a band of 4 (low level) padawans, who's going to help us' but really, we're Jedi - the superstars of the genre. I personally find it out of character to seek help - because we are weak? Train harder, I say, and trust in the Force. Especially so at this stage when we have nothing to go on. We would have soldier retainers to fight what enemy? We are investigating still - there's no imminent battle. If we find something and it's beyond us, then we can call the Jedi council for guidance. From a metagame perspective, I don't see 5 level 2's being any more capable of 4 level 2's. And I don't want some higher level Joe hanging around anyway. Videya might not be combat focused but I certainly find her combat capable enough. When we get to the point where we're going to confront Crayl or some of the other players in this, we'll be fine.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I'm really not used to having my character make a choice based on metagame. I'll build my character on metagame, but not play them on it. Strange, I guess. :)
ReplyDeleteYeah I was just yanking your chain with the metagame part. ;)
ReplyDelete