(Fantasy) What good are gods anyway?
In the real world... Hmm. Rough way to start a post. Let me just say that I've not seen evidence of Poseidon or Loki or Amaterasu. Until I do, I tend to consider religious pantheons to be constructs of people, the deities therein mostly anthropomorphic representations of natural "events," be they sea or trickery or sun. I allow that I may be wrong, but I tend toward skepticism in the absence of proof.
So accept for a moment that such can be the case, at least. A religion and deity can simply be a construct of a society trying to explain something in a way they understand. Then give the society a new understanding, supported by repeatable evidence and in absence of any manifestation of divinity to show otherwise. Is the religion still necessary?
Many fantasy worlds have a pantheon (or more) of gods hanging out. Sometimes they're active, sometimes they're removed. But what purpose do they really serve? They give a rallying point for mortal characters and offer (literal) deus ex machina, but is that necessary? From a narrative perspective, what can you do with a god in a fantasy world that you cannot do with a powerful mage? Relabel D&D's divine powers as arcane and what do you really lose? Well, okay, in that case you may lose the Cleric - a hybrid class that might be too good anyway.
Some fantasy worlds exist fine without any real evidence of "true" gods. Dark Sun is the only one I can pull to mind immediately, being devoid of actual gods and having instead the dragon-kings, sorcerers of great power who tried to play god. Though, as I'm reminded, that setting is probably only godless in its "present" state, having been abandoned/sealed off. It seems gods are part of the genre that are accepted even if they're usually not given a great deal of time.
But... is there really any particular purpose served by gods in a fantasy game/book that can't be tossed aside or handed off to a non-divinity?
So accept for a moment that such can be the case, at least. A religion and deity can simply be a construct of a society trying to explain something in a way they understand. Then give the society a new understanding, supported by repeatable evidence and in absence of any manifestation of divinity to show otherwise. Is the religion still necessary?
Many fantasy worlds have a pantheon (or more) of gods hanging out. Sometimes they're active, sometimes they're removed. But what purpose do they really serve? They give a rallying point for mortal characters and offer (literal) deus ex machina, but is that necessary? From a narrative perspective, what can you do with a god in a fantasy world that you cannot do with a powerful mage? Relabel D&D's divine powers as arcane and what do you really lose? Well, okay, in that case you may lose the Cleric - a hybrid class that might be too good anyway.
Some fantasy worlds exist fine without any real evidence of "true" gods. Dark Sun is the only one I can pull to mind immediately, being devoid of actual gods and having instead the dragon-kings, sorcerers of great power who tried to play god. Though, as I'm reminded, that setting is probably only godless in its "present" state, having been abandoned/sealed off. It seems gods are part of the genre that are accepted even if they're usually not given a great deal of time.
But... is there really any particular purpose served by gods in a fantasy game/book that can't be tossed aside or handed off to a non-divinity?
Hmm. Okay, I'm thinking about this, and looking at the idea of a fantasy setting which allows for magic, supernatural creatures, spirits, undead, and the rest of them, but completely removes the gods from the equation. You'll still have churches and worshippers, but the presence of the gods are next to non-existent. So I'm thinking about this. In such a circumstance, I'd think religion would be debunked fairly quickly if there's no actual intervention -- magic and the progression of exploration / divination / study would probably go a long way to removing belief in the gods, simply because they would not pick up anything that would 'register'. Alternatively, the worship of the gods would convert to worship of the more powerful spirits and entities, who could (not too hard here), develop a method of gaining benefits from the adoration and sacrifices made to them. With this growth of power, they may as well be considered 'gods'. Perfect example that comes to mind is Shinto, and the reverence of the spirits and other kami there. As for purpose? Depends on what you want and how to wish to paint the setting. --- As an aside, as I've mentioned myself, for 'proof', I have personal experience. And if you believe my roomie, he's had personal contact with the divine. And then there's also April's experiences as well. Actually, thinking on this, enough people have had 'experiences' that you could, in theory, accept that such things may exist. :)
ReplyDeleteWell, you could replace them in the "typical" structure by spirits or mages or whatever, but I'm thinking more along the lines of not having divinities to begin with. Religious organizations may either worship concept more then entity or they may fall by the wayside as magic and "science" develop...
ReplyDeleteI, too, am highly skeptical about the existence of gods -- in the real world. And I suspect you, like me, are highly skeptical of the existence of magic and fantastic creatures in the real world, yes? But we're not discussing the real world. We're discussing fantasy settings. Fantasy is not about noodling around with spells and dragons any more than science fiction is about noodling around with spaceships and aliens. Science fiction is about creatively exploring the possible, while fantasy is about creatively exploring the mythic. (This, btw, is my major argument for why Star Wars is "low fantasy in a science fiction setting".) And gods are a big part of The Mythic. (Sure, not every fantasy author uses them, but then not every fantasy author uses mythical beasts either.) It's just as legitimate for an author to explore questions like, "What are the gods of this world? What rules do they operate by? How do mortals relate to them?" as it is to explore questions like, "What is magic like in this world? What rules does it operate by? How has it influenced history?" As a rule, I find "working religion" (as shown in Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series and Megan Whalen Turner's The Thief) more interesting than "working magic", because it involves a very strange kind of inter-personal... ah, make that inter-being play of personalities and interests. Magic does not have an inherent personality. YMMV. This is why, even though in real life I am firmly agnostic (in the original sense of believing that we cannot know), almost every fantasy-setting character I've ever made is deeply pious.
ReplyDeleteI think you're confused as to what "proof" means. You, and Paul, and April, all have had personal religious experiences -- what you have not had is empirical evidence. How can you be certain that what you've experienced isn't simply powerful hallucination and/or self-delusion? You can't. That's where faith comes in. Don't get me wrong -- I have great respect for faith and religious/spiritual experiences. But to mistake them for scientific evidence does a disservice to both religion and science.
ReplyDeleteTechnically? no. not if these mage-types can ever build worlds and grant power to others. That's what fantasy divinity is, the universe builders who allow their worshippers to perform super-human acts of magical prowess. They also often have been given personalities and agendas to make them interactable instead of being the unreachable and unknown (as the divine honestly should be. No mortal can -ever- know the mind of a god, you, Kit and myself all included) The best gods are the Lovecraftian ones. Utterly alien, perhaps even malevolent from a human point of view
ReplyDeletethe atheist will restrain from comment. :D
ReplyDeleteActually, before Lovecraft, the concept of cosmic horror didn't even exist as a genre. He started it himself. Before that point, the idea of 'unknowable and unreachable gods' didn't even exist.
ReplyDeleteActually, on that note, I had a talk with Paul once about his super hero game which was set in a fantasy world. There, the gods didn't exist, and we had a discussion about this. I point out: Take a guy who can shape energy. He has the ability to imbue a portion of this into others, allowing them to do the same thing at the price of giving him a portion of their essence. They can then pass it on to someone else when they're strong enough, for the same effect (a portion of that person's essence goes to the first guy). Essentially, each time someone gains a portion of his power, he gets stronger for it. The 'first generation' weakens him, but each generation after makes him stronger. Enough devotees, and he's a walking god. Paul considered the implications and the concept, and declared both viable, and pretty cool. The first god in his setting.
ReplyDeletehow is this even relevant to the OT?
ReplyDeleteThus, religion wasn't neccesary. The mortals could emulate gods.
ReplyDeleteExcept in the long run, that one person becomes one in a literal sense. :) So, what happens then?
ReplyDeleteyou still have a non-divine person capable of handing out a self generated power. There wasn't a god, there apparently hasn't been one. there wouldn't be a term for it. the one sin the know would refer to this progenitor of power as some name and there's your fill in. Regardless, you don't need a god which is the OP.
ReplyDelete